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 Post subject: WHAT IS GOING ON?!?!?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:18 am 
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I am unclear what is going on. I came here to hack my Linkstation. I think it is noble to share information but I don't feel the need to support everyone else's community, or create it for them. Let them do it on thier own. If they want help that's great.

I know that ARM-kernel issues are complicated, but it seems like things are occuring OFF-wiki in mailing lists and hush-hush. Am I wrong? or misinformed?

I don't want to hack everyone else's device, just mine. I am happy to join other communities if I can help or I get one of their devices, but I don't see a need to form everyone's communities for them, and maintain them.

I joined and contributed because this community helped me hack my LS and I was hoping that they would help me to do new and cool things with my Kuro-Pro that I might not have the expertise to do on my own. Now it seems like there is an unnercurrent of profiteering going on that I cannot see or understand. What is going on?

I still want to participate in the LinkStation wiki. and The KuroWiki I OWN both of these devices, I feel like people here can help me with them, and that I can help some people with them. I am happy to help someone else if they ask, but I don't want to hack other devices.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

_________________
-Ramuk

LinkStation HG *250 Uboot - Foonas-EM - Freelink
Kuro HG *750 Uboot - Foonas-EM - Debian Squeeze
Kuro HD *60 Uboot - Foonas-EM - Debian Squeeze (For Sale)
KuroPro *2TB Debian Lenny Armel- Kernel 2.6.26
KuroPro *1TB Debian Lenny Armel- Kernel 2.6.25.6


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:53 pm 
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ok, it seems that we have to discuss this :|

actually this is a buffalo based community.....and it should remain as it is.

it might look the way that we are totally loosing our identity....

as i have invested quite some time into setting everything up as it currently is i would like to explain why i did what, what i planned to do, what i not planned to do and then i would like to hear your opinions regarding all that. i really had so much work with all this...i forgot to discuss everything with you guys....

what did i do?
i have moved the buffalo based wiki (former linkstationwiki.net) which has the terastation.org information and the kurobox.com information inside. its is the buffalo-superwiki.

i have setup several wikis for other vendors than buffalo. these wikis are only for helping other s to organize their information..especially for those that are not organized at all.

i set up a general wiki which i personally would use for posting general wiki articles. no one else has to...actually only very general stuff that has more or less to do with starting to hack a box should get there.

here you see what i mean:
http://nas-central.org/index.php/Category:Howto

why did i do that?
actually the plan was to provide others the possibility to document their devices without having to setup a wiki. and only a wiki. they do not get anything else. i just thought it might be a cool idea if there was a central place for documenting nas-devices.

another problem for myself is that we really lack voluntary personal. several admins are here once every few weeks...i had to do most of the stuff alone....which was quite time consuming.

what i planned to do
currently ka6sox is working on autobuilders for us and specifically foonas....so that the latest foonas / foonas-em / foonas-scsi is always available for all boxes instantly. and it autobuilders also help with ipkg feeds. so the plan was to support foonas.....but as i only own buffalo devices i still wanted to hack the buffalo devices.....my intention is to push development for buffalo boxes. supporting foonas seemed a good idea to me.

what i not planned to do
i was part of this community since its very beginnings when there was only the yahoo mailing list....the time frontalot has set up the wiki at linkstationwiki.org...took over administration with linkstationwiki.net.....and now with the help of jonli447 we moved to nas-central.org.......

i actually suggested frontalot to use the domain linkstationwiki.org.....this alone should show you that i really liked the name...

i did not want that anyone in the community does think that we give up our identity completely.

that was not my plan. by looking at the address bar i just noticed another reason why you came up with that topic....it is called forum.nas-central.org.....and it wasn`t planned to add any additional forum sections for hacking other boxes than buffalo devices.....hmm..this might be a reason why you think that.

this forum definitely will remain buffalo centric. actually the real hacking happens here IMHO.

what about serving the forums back from http://forum.nas-central.org to http://forum.nas-central.org?

maybe it is also possible to host the buffalo wiki from both http://buffalo.nas-central.org and http://linkstationwiki.net at the same time via apache...


regardless what i wrote above in this post...can you all please post your real opinions?
i really wanna know your opinions....because....the community consists of you....i am just an admin here. i just want you guys to start talking. so far i haven`t received any PM except one from andre in the past which i answered to regarding that issue....i haven`t received any additional one the last months. so i was not aware that several of you felt bad about all this happening.

please write down your thoughts

_________________
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:31 pm 
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(Thanks ramuk) I think I know you well enough to be sure you have the best intentions, mindbender, and I can see how much work you put into it. But I'm not sure if expanding the community beyond our 'core business' was such a good idea, either -- while at the same moment, we don't even have the forum's quick reply function or FTP access working. The expansion binds too many resources, and it blurs our profile. Quoting Goethe: "In der Beschränkung zeigt sich erst der Meister." My preference: To keep our edges sharp, and bleeding.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:21 pm 
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ramuk wrote:
I am unclear what is going on. I came here to hack my Linkstation. I think it is noble to share information but I don't feel the need to support everyone else's community, or create it for them. Let them do it on thier own. If they want help that's great.

I know that ARM-kernel issues are complicated, but it seems like things are occuring OFF-wiki in mailing lists and hush-hush. Am I wrong? or misinformed?


The kernel stuff is being discussed in the appropriate places with the relevant kernel developers - unfortunately this is traditionally done on mailing lists. I'm also not a big fan of mailing lists but there is nothing hush-hush about it! In the near and not too distant future you will be seeing support directly from kernel.org anyhoo :)

Edit: I believe some of it went into -mm the other day btw!

Not wanting to offend but perhaps this opinion (providing spaces for other manufacturers users) should have been raised earlier before the work happened. I do sympathise with this view to some extent, but this does have the potential to help our community grow and provide a community for those that have none (this doesnt apply to all the new spaces since some of them have communities already, of dubious quality in some cases).

It will be obvious initially that the other spaces will lack users. The make or break of this new organisation is getting people to use these new spaces.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:15 am 
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I'm going to answer Ramuk, as it's his post. (and he's got nicer teeth than me!)

Quote:
I am unclear what is going on. I came here to hack my Linkstation. I think it is noble to share information but I don't feel the need to support everyone else's community, or create it for them. Let them do it on thier own. If they want help that's great.


I do agree somewhat, I (as many others here) have been here a while, and originally came to stream my music!! I have no doubt that very talanted individuals will do great things with other boxes, but I don't have one of those so I'm not that interested.
Quote:
I know that ARM-kernel issues are complicated, but it seems like things are occuring OFF-wiki in mailing lists and hush-hush. Am I wrong? or misinformed?

From what I've read (which isn't alot) people are trying hard to get things recognised
Quote:

I don't want to hack everyone else's device, just mine. I am happy to join other communities if I can help or I get one of their devices, but I don't see a need to form everyone's communities for them, and maintain them.



It's certainly ambitious, and I'm not sure necessararily needed, but can/will we make use of other communitys resources
Quote:


I joined and contributed because this community helped me hack my LS and I was hoping that they would help me to do new and cool things with my Kuro-Pro that I might not have the expertise to do on my own. Now it seems like there is an unnercurrent of profiteering going on that I cannot see or understand. What is going on?



I'm too drunk to make sense of that, but I don't think any profiteering has occured
Quote:


I still want to participate in the LinkStation wiki. and The KuroWiki I OWN both of these devices, I feel like people here can help me with them, and that I can help some people with them. I am happy to help someone else if they ask, but I don't want to hack other devices.



I know exactly where you're at.

Quote:

Am I the only one that feels this way?



I don't think you are.

But, at the end of the day, I know there are alot of people that have made/make this a great site, but fenderbender does (in my opion) spend too much time on making it better. And should therefor bare full responsibility for his actions!!

I think we need keep our individuality This is where we are, and this is what we do. Others may say the same, then let them amalgamarise with us (if they like)

Now, can someone pull the splinters out, this fence is hurting my arse


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:48 am 
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info: added news item with a link to this thread.

Quote:
But, at the end of the day, I know there are alot of people that have made/make this a great site, but fenderbender does (in my opion) spend too much time on making it better. And should therefor bare full responsibility for his actions!!


what exactly do you mean with that?

_________________
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:19 pm 
I haven't been here for a while. This is due to several reasons, one of which is the abuse on terastation.org site when trying to find some information.
I think that these forums here have become too complicated - there are too many sections some of which are simply not relevent or split down too much.

Just my quick 2cents.

WizF


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:46 pm 
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I am not doing too much for this project ATM, and I haven't read all of the posts in this topic, so, first, my understanding of the problem being discussed here: some think, that this web entity, including the wiki, forums, mailing lists should be more focused on the original topic - NAS systems from Buffalo, others think, it is ok to work on various devices, mostly other NAS systems from other vendors, discuss them, develop for them. If my understanding of the problem here is wrong and the topic discussed in this thread is completely different, just ignore my post. If I am more or less right in my understanding, and if you want to know my opinion - I am with the second group. I.e., I see mostly advantages in working with more systems, than disadvantages. First, you cannot dictate what people should spend their time on. De facto this site is mostly done by a group of people in their own time. They are not payed for this work, so, they may decide whatever they want to put on this site. The one who writes the code decides how he writes it. Secondly, we all benefit from this broader range of interests. We learn from other projects, they learn from us, we share code, experience, information, etc. This is how open source works, IMHO. And if someone doesn't like the way things are done here - they are free to either start taking part more actively here to drive the things the way they want. But not with posts "you do wrong, please stop doing that and do it the way I want", but with their own contributions of code, documentation, whatsoever. Or they may go elsewhere to do things the way they see fit. Sorry, this is not what I want to happen, but I don't see other chances. Either you are passively observing how things develop here and either like it or not, or you participate and try to change things you don't like, or you stay away from this development. So for example you probably can just edit the wiki and separate it into two clear sections: "our main involvement Buffalo NAS systems", and "some lesser important projects we happen to spend some of our time on occasionally". Don't know if everybody would be happy about that, but you might try.

Thanks
Guennadi


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:14 pm 
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mindbender wrote:
i just thought it might be a cool idea if there was a central place for documenting nas-devices.

And, FWIW, I like this idea. Please keep it this way and I am sure this work is much appreciated!

I also said a few times, it would be even better, IMHO, to have a (central) place for all hackable Linux embedded devices - multimedia devices, handhelds, routers, mobile phones, you name them. There are a few sites ATM dedicated to them, some of them are very good, but it would be great to have a site, where you could, e.g.,

1. search all info on a specific device
2. search all devices of one architecture or using any specific hardware
3. search all devices in one category
4. search all devices where a recent Linux kernel and user-space run, maybe specific distro, bootloader, libc,...
5. search all devices with specific hardware parameters (e.g., gigabit eth, usb 2.0, usb device, RAID, SATA, Firewire, WLAN, Bluetooth, graphics, camera, tv-receiver)
...

Thanks
Guennadi


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:10 pm 
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From my side, there is really nothing more to add to what lyakh said, really...


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:47 am 
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Well, from a casual visitor who comes around once in a while to see what's new on the Linkstation scene and who will try some low to medium impact things, I'm all for making this site as useful as possible to the greatest number of people but I do find that the previous setup was friendlier and it was easier to find things that are specifically Linkstation-related.

With this new site, there's just so many choices and options that I usually give up before I can get anywhere... Not a serious gripe but since your asking for people's opinions...

Daniel


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:06 am 
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I have only Buffalo devices to date but I could possibly get something else someday and wouldn't mind if nas-central helped me hack it because that's the fun part. I was confused the day I went to the wiki and the Buffalo stuff was moved. But it seems ok to me, it does not bother me as much as it might some of the more regular contributers. I don't know anything about mailing lists or whatever.

Cheers


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:09 am 
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lyakh wrote:
information, etc. This is how open source works, IMHO. And if someone doesn't like the way things are done here - they are free to either start taking part more actively here to drive the things the way they want. But not with posts "you do wrong, please stop doing that and do it the way I want", but with their own contributions of code, documentation, whatsoever. Or they may go elsewhere to do things the way they see fit. Sorry, this is not what I want to happen, but I don't see other chances. Either you are passively observing how things develop here and either like it or not, or you participate and try to change things you don't like, or you stay away from this development.


Certainly I've never been one one to toot my horn, but I think I've contributed my share over time.

Of course I am not a DEV, I never thought of this forum or wiki as a DEV forum, it's one of the reasons that I liked to come here.

Certainly I understand how problematic the lack of a clear codebase (kernel and otherwise) for the ARM based devices is. My issue is that I don't see why we should be branching out to everyone else's ARM or other device. I think the effort to create a space for those communities is noble. But I see this effort akin to arranging horseback riding lessons for a child interested in ice hockey, yeah it might be useful or even great, but maybe they won't be interested at all. I think interwiki of some sort is great, but let them create thier own wiki structures rather then us create one for them. We don't even own horses.

This structure and gateway is confusing, in the past if you were looking for kurobox stuff or linkstation stuff a google search would get you to something you thought you could use quickly, now it's more murky. A gateway page like wikipedia's http://wikipedia.org/ or wikimedia http://wikimedia.org/ rather than the one we have at http://nas-central.org/index.php/Main_Page may just be easier to understand and less confusing.

_________________
-Ramuk

LinkStation HG *250 Uboot - Foonas-EM - Freelink
Kuro HG *750 Uboot - Foonas-EM - Debian Squeeze
Kuro HD *60 Uboot - Foonas-EM - Debian Squeeze (For Sale)
KuroPro *2TB Debian Lenny Armel- Kernel 2.6.26
KuroPro *1TB Debian Lenny Armel- Kernel 2.6.25.6


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:19 am 
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i don't share ramuk's opinion
i fully support mindblenders decision to extend the wiki.

i don't see the difficulty to click on buffalo devices on the left or just bookmark http://buffalo.nas-central.org/ and you are back to all buffalo only

for me the contribution within the community is what the open source thought is all about. you guys are all taking advantage of this. if in the future some addional kernel developers, hackers appear for other nas devices (running on arm cpu's) everyone benefits

Quote:
I don't want to hack everyone else's device, just mine.

this is fine with everyone, but why criticise the thought to help other to hack just there's
no one will ever force you to maintain or support anything?!
mindblender put a few days work into the webpage, webspace and traffic can be ignored right?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:56 pm 
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This is how I feel about it.

I came for the same reason as many of you - to get more functionality out of my box.
I stayed, enjoyed myself, learned and have been fortunate to find some little ways to contribute - because it is fun and problem-solving is a blast when you get to do it with people who also enjoy it, and are willing to share knowledge.

I don't have a lot of interest in testing/working/hacking devices that I don't own, but I do understand that with the Marvell SoC boards being so pervasive, we can hack/develop/tinker for a wider audience for a lower cost/benefit ratio, with the hope of positively affecting more users... and getting a few more people involved.

ramuk wrote:
I know that ARM-kernel issues are complicated, but it seems like things are occuring OFF-wiki in mailing lists and hush-hush. Am I wrong? or misinformed?
... Now it seems like there is an unnercurrent of profiteering going on that I cannot see or understand. What is going on?

I haven't heard anything explicit or implicit about making money off this venture. A lot of stuff w/ the git-kernel is being solved ... maybe/hopefully the xfs issues will be resolved as well.

If ramuk speaks of "loss of focus" or "mission creep", then I'd have to say that that could be a modest concern for me. As a matter of anecdotal evidence, personal experience, and history, it may be far easier to do 1 or 2 things excellently than a dozen very well. (ramuk, I respect you & your opinion, and I hope I understood/interpreted you correctly) And andre, I guess maybe this goes along with your allusion to Goethe.

In terms of vision, I can see that a wider community can potentially bring in more ideas and propel us further than we would go otherwise. I think mindbender's idea can work out for the good, and add something of substance, as long as the inhabitants of those new structures contribute as one would expect and hope. Time will tell. Technology is changing, and that (along with how well the community interacts and communicates) will probably drive the wiki to whatever future lies in store for it. Change is a universal constant.

This is not "fence-sitting". It is just how I see it. Until I have a burning need to do otherwise, I will probably spend most of my time at either the Buffalo Wiki or foonas.org, but as long as it doesn't detract from the quality of things here, I don't have a problem with it. Whatever the case, thanks to those who contributed and showed me something new to play with.

;)

_________________
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LS-HG500 (Lenny)
Various LS-Pros v1,v2 (unbricked w/ serial & jtag)
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wooohooo!
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